Curse

Life Bringing · Mar 21, 2011, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Thanks for the input and support already! I really appreciate it!

We are off to a good start. I'm redoing the way the builds are listed completely. The new design will be more intuitive, easier to replace outdated metas, easier to update with new metas, and will add much more room to include insight about why the skills were chosen and what the best optional skills are per Hero build. Hope to have Casterway and Discordway done by tomorrow.

Also, seeing as how this is a Meta guide, I need some opinions on skills:

Painful Bond: Is this skill used often enough to warrant being main-bared in Casterway and Discordway, since there are 2 spirit spammers, or should I simply include it with the "optionals" for that build?

Empathy: Should this skill be main-bared on the Panic Mesmers, should it be optional, or should it be left out entirely?

Ether Signet: Is this skill decent enough to warrant a position as an optional skill for any build? There seem to be mixed feelings from info I've gathered.

UA Monk: Should I include Dwayna's Kiss or Gift of Health on the main bar? They will be under the optionals for sure.

Arcane Conundrum: Main bar or optional? The build doesn't NEED it but it seems to be used often.

Aura of Restoration: Worth main-baring on the Ele builds, or should it be in the optional section? I'm leaning towards main bar.

Discordway: Are the three Discord Bars current? There are some reservations about what should be run on them.

And finally...

Would anyone find it beneficial if I eventually added a "Process for Build Creation" section?

PB:Optional. Heroes dont use it well enough to be worth the slot
Empathy:Left off entirely
Ether Signet:No, no reason to bring it on any bar
UA:Not sure really. Depends on the area, but from uhh, Xeno's(?, mightve been someone else) description it sounds like gift is far superior to kiss.
Arcane Conundrum: Probably worthy of mainbar
Aura:Mainbar
Discord:There is no such thing as a community agreed upon discordway. It would be nigh impossible to get 3 bars that everyone agrees with, so just go with either a barebones setup or pick skills that you think are best

I don't think that a Process for Build Creation section is really necessary or all that helpful. You might want to have a section pertaining to area specific variants that are a must-have, such as FS in slavers and parts of desolation. Another thing you might want to include is a section regarding why certain setups are bad, like 7 discords or whatever else pugs are running these days.

Edit: I think that a redo of the physway section is necessary. Most people(including myself) will skip straight to the builds without looking through the writing first, and then go back later. I was very confused with that pawned screen before i realized that it was several options for a physway team.

CrustyEarl · Mar 21, 2011, 03:45 AM // 03:45

I like the guide and appreciate all the work your putting into this gift to the community. Though the meat of it is pretty good I think some things might need to be adressed to keep this relevant for years to come.

Quote:

You might want to have a section pertaining to area specific variants that are a must-have, such as FS in slavers and parts of desolation.

I totally agree with what Life bringing posted here. Common areas don't need attention but perhaps those few areas that tend to give people a headache, as well as elite areas. Focus on a must have Meta Hero bar for a certain situations, specifically in HM. Most all areas can be done in NM with almost seemingly random hero bars. Focusing on HM keeps it Meta IMO.

I think that build "teams" should be avoided in here. 7 hero's changes so many things that were considered meta back when there were only 3 hero's. Many things in PVX seem to be changing to in light of this. Basically, what was a meta team build a few years ago is crap now. As more people experiment more and more team builds will outshine the old stand buy's simply due to the addition of 4 more bars to play with.

I do like what your doing with regards to class builds. By removing team builds this would allow for more suggestions being offered for pairings with certain specific class bars. ie: listing a n/rt bar with a note that it works great when parried with MM bombers or XXX whatever.

Quote:

Another thing you might want to include is a section regarding why certain setups are bad, like 7 discords or whatever else pugs are running these days.

This is really needed. Sometimes too much of a good thing is bad. (although it's still fun)

Life Bringing · Mar 21, 2011, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Just thought of something else. It might be beneficial to list builds by role rather than by profession. It will be easier for someone to create a team build if they know the role that the build can play, rather than looking through all the profession options and possibly missing a build because they didnt think a profession would have a build to fulfill the role they needed. I guess that kind of goes back to your process of build creation section idea.

Also to go along with my must-have skills bit, a similar section saying "Dont bring these characters here"(ie MM in SoO, ooze, etc) might be beneficial, although those types of areas might not be numerous enough to be worth it

AndrewSX · Mar 21, 2011, 08:18 AM // 08:18

About UA gift vs. kiss: it depends if there's a ER prot in the team. Kiss heal more for each ench on target. If someone is under heavy pressure, it's probabible that the ER will put on him all prot enchs he can(Aegis+prot spirit+spirit bond+any other like shied guardian and such). D-kiss can then spike heal at the cheap 5 ene cost/3 sec cooldown.

Kaida the Heartless · Mar 21, 2011, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Physway will be redone. No worries.

My only issue with listing builds by role is the fact that the influx of newer players are going to get lost... again. Roles also tend to overlap heavily; for example, where would a Minion Bomber with Prot Spirit go? Now where would he go with Dwayna's Sorrow? I wouldn't want players running around with trying to find every Minion Bomber to choose which is best. I could add a "Role:" line for each build, so they know what it fills at a glance?

I may need help gathering a list of "Hard" areas. I feel like I may skip over some on accident. I could definitely do a "good" list and a "bad" list for them. I do not plan to do one for Underworld or DoA, as these areas should be done with humans and require an understanding of the game that renders this guide obsolete.

I only plan to keep 3 (maximum) Team Builds. They are a pain in the butt to update. The Meta's for those are recent as well, nothing from before the 7 Hero Update. The individual builds will have plenty of room for me to say "Goes well with X".

I'm not sure how I would do the "don't do this" section. Its hard to list effectively with ALL the things you can do wrong.

Luminarus · Mar 21, 2011, 08:49 AM // 08:49

I dunno if its meta, but imho I find Unsteady Ground to be far more useful on an earth hero then sandstorm due to its KD effect.

In terms of current meta builds, I think its probably worthed mentioning a 'balanced' option. Me personally, and I know alot of other people who run a team build based on 7 balanced classes designed to provide a great balance of damage, shutdown, defence, and heals.

But since its probably not considered Meta, even if it is (when run correctly) more efficient then discord/caster/physway.

HigherMinion · Mar 21, 2011, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Few things, in no particular order:

I believe most monk bars have PD+WNWN instead of two rupts.

Shadow of Fear and Barbs on one hero bar makes for slow cast times, you'd have to cancel them and micro for effectiveness; I'd recommend Reckless Haste be mainbared on both Curses builds. After all, I assume these bars are for Hard Mode. You also don't need Signet of Lost Souls on the Orders bar when using Cultist's (Even when maintaining 4-5 copies of SoH).

Hero AI is iffy at times, especially for melee. AI for pets is worse. Ranger AI+Pet AI=one wasted party slot and a deadweight you have to heal.

Discordway I believe is supposed to have Shambling on two necs while the third is a bomber with Death Nova+Bone Minions. One has Enfeebling Blood, the other with Reckless Haste (1s cast>2s). I also thought they all had SoLS.

You shouldn't put too many rupts on the PI mes, as the AI suck at prioritising the use of PI even if it's recharged.

Missed mainbarring Infuse Health on the ER ele

Sandstorm doesn't do anything but damage, does it? I'd rather a utility earth elite, if it had to be an elementalist elite.

Assassin dagger chains, though claimed to have been "fixed", are still very slow and terrible when using Jagged (just watch the Pr0ni spam Jagged Strike like baws). Instead; consider Locust's Fury+Frenzy, several signets and Symbolic Fury.

...And that's all I have to say about that. Nice guide/gallery, though.

Sir Mad · Mar 21, 2011, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Just one remark: I find the way the different prof builds are presented very confusing. You use a build template to show individual builds. I know if you post one pic per individual build that would be a lot of pictures (probably to much for a single post in this forum, if the number is limited

), but maybe you should add a big red warning to say that's not team builds but individual builds. The first time I saw this topic, I was like "wtf? Is this guy really trying to tell us to use these 6 rangers together?!".

Also, I think you somehow missed in this guide (I'm sure you don't in the teams you use) the great thing about having 7 heroes: it's not about individual builds but team builds. For factual reasons, you can have much more synergy between heroes than between humans.

I remember the old days of the tomb B/P teams. Roles where clearly defined, and there were not many skills you should carry for the whole team. These only two skills were Favourable Winds and Winnowing. With some groups sometimes you had to ask during 5 minutes "FW? WW?" before someone goes in and you realize no one has these spirits. :P

What I'm trying to say is not only you never have this kind of issues in a 7 heroes team, but you can even go further. For instance, if you have a Barrage/Incendiary Arrows ranger, why would he carry Splinter Weapon? Yeah, that's a must-have skill for him, but the SoS with 14-16 in Channeling can carry it, even if it's just for one player/hero.

The same can be said about many skills. If you need 3 or 4 skills in a specific attribute, then only one hero should carry them. Sometimes you need more skills in an attribute than that, or sometimes you have to have them on several heroes (like stances or self-enchants), but the bottom line is you must try to spend your attributes points in the team and not in individual heroes' bars.

So for instance, I think you should remove Splinter Weapon from the Barrager's bar and add a comment to say you must have a channeling hero who carries it. Again, that's just an example.

X-Plosiv · Mar 21, 2011, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Nice thread, I hope you'll finish it, I'll pretty much try some of those builds you gave

Aly Lightningstorm · Mar 21, 2011, 11:54 AM // 11:54

I don't think monk heroes use interrupts if they're set to avoid combat, do they? A bit pointless to give those skills to them if they're never going to use them.

Also, no love for hex eater signet? I always give that to mesmer heroes.

kewlsnake · Mar 21, 2011, 12:11 PM // 12:11

I don't quite get the usefulness of PoD. Is it because heroes aren't idiots at using it? Would human players actually use it?

I get why SS isn't really prefered when using OP mass interrupt mesmers though. I would use a VoR mesmer+SS Necro to give the necro some love.

distilledwill · Mar 21, 2011, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Nice thread - although I'd add a Soldier's Fury paragon to your list of para builds. Seeing as Heroes are currently crap at using aggressive refrain, I'm finding SFury to be the most effectively elite in their inventory.

loopysnoopy · Mar 21, 2011, 02:03 PM // 14:03

This is some great work on Hero meta guides the lay out is great, it is all easy to read nice clear instructions on what is and what is not.

I think but I may be wrong on this but maybe a little section for armour example like survivors or blessed etc for each profession of the heroes or will that make the guide hard to follow but either way looking for the next instalment of this great guide.

Thanks Kaida the Heartless

LifeInfusion · Mar 21, 2011, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Note on ele heroes:

Water bar sucks. Shatterstone is a lame skill due to the 15 energy and 2 cast. Rust/Ice Spikes/Deep Freeze are the only AoEs for water.

Earth bars are bad on heroes because they don't prioritize the DOTs properly. You might get 2-3 hits of it. I'd run Unsteady ground over Sandstorm for this reason.

Aura of Restoration is not really optional if you run 8+ energy storage and a few skills <10 recharge. It decreases the energy strain on your bar by 16-33% on 5-10 energy skills and acts as a 0.25cast cover enchantment. 5 energy skills with <10 recharge become more usable (it's a 33% reduction after attunement), granted there's few skills worth using that are 5 energy (meteor, glowing gaze, glowing ice, mind blast, shellshock). It gets even better if you run spells not of the attuned element: Aegis, PwK, Pure was Li Ming, Remove hex, Ward of Stability, etc.

sentex · Mar 23, 2011, 09:44 PM // 21:44

I don't use to post that much, but i read the forum almost all days. But, i thought that i must to reply here just to say thanks for the work

SongOf · Mar 24, 2011, 01:05 AM // 01:05

First off, great job so far. I love the idea and your format.

I don't mean to put you on the spot but:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Smiting Prayers is rumored to have an update around the corner, so make sure to check back for changes to this build.

was this a blurb from staff / leaked from Test Krew / etc.?

shadeblade47 · Mar 24, 2011, 01:49 AM // 01:49

looks great, great work. my only suggestion, if you're not already planning on it, would be to possibly add attributes along with the skills. thats not a complaint, just a suggestion. looks great, thanks!

FyrFytr998 · Mar 27, 2011, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Great guide. I can't wait to see the completed version.

Only thing I can add is that with your R/Rt Splinter Barrage build, Volley is becoming a main bar staple.

Potestas · Apr 07, 2011, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Grats nice job!

Pls keep it alive!

Its hard to get this quality of information updated!

Tks for charing!!!

Navis · Apr 07, 2011, 11:18 AM // 11:18

I run these two ele builds and I haven't seen them in your guide or in the pending modifications:

The Ether Prism Healer works well in areas with a lot of enchantment removal and when you don't want to dedicate a necro to healing (N/Rt healer is more reliable imho).

The Ward Against Harm ele shines in areas with a lot of fire AoE (Sacnoth Valley, Kathandrax Dungeon, Fire Forest in FoW, etc) but is good everywhere else since heroes tend to clump together at all times. I've put a lot of energy management here, not all will be necessary depending on the rest of the bar (could be /Me for a different kind of e-management).